RTTC #210 No Pain No Gain Really?

In this episode of Running to the Castle… Dr. Ali breaks down the biggest misconception in running, that “no pain, no gain” is the key to getting faster. 

She explains why that mindset is actually keeping so many slow, back-of-the-pack, and injury-prone runners stuck, exhausted, and frustrated. 

She clarifies the difference between pushing yourself hard in the right workouts versus feeling wrecked after every run, and introduces a more strategic approach built on purposeful training… where speed workouts are truly hard, long runs are truly easy, and everything has a clear role in helping you get faster without breaking down. 

By separating paces, avoiding the “gray zone,” and using pace testing to define your limits, runners can finally see real progress, often getting significantly faster in just a few weeks… while still having the energy to enjoy their runDisney race experience.

Learn more about Stronger. Faster. Finisher. !

Ready to cross the finish line stronger, faster, and prouder at your next runDisney race? 

Get personalized support, smarter training, and strategies designed specifically for slow, back-of-the-pack or injury-prone runners who want to build a bigger buffer ahead of the balloon ladies, have time for character photos and energy to enjoy the Disney Parks. Learn more about the Stronger. Faster. Finisher. Program today and be the first to know when doors open!

Free Resources

• Follow me on Instagram @rundisneydpt
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• Check out FREE training plans for injury-prone runDisney runners on my website. 
• Book a Free 30 minute Call with me if you're wondering how you should train and if working together makes sense.
  
  Hi, I'm Dr. Ali
  I've been running for 15+ years and been in the rehab space since 2012 when I earned my Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree. I get injury prone runDisney runners across the finish line without feeling broken.

Transcript

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Hey, how's it going? Today I'm talking about no pain, no gain? Really? This is Running to the Castle, a podcast for injury-prone Run Disney runners on a journey to running magical miles. Join me, Dr. Alley, as I share the secrets I've gathered as a runner, doctor of physical therapy, and coach. You'll learn the exact ways I get my clients to the castle strong without feeling broken or held together with KT tape as they cross the finish line. So I've been getting a lot of DMs on Instagram, which I love, by the way. Please keep sending this information or tag me in your Instagram post about it. I absolutely love it. So keep doing it. But I've been getting um messages, DMs on Instagram about speed workouts. Now, a lot of them are coming from runners who did my workshop, How to Get Out of Corral G. Uh, and then my stronger, faster finisher clients are also sending me messages. These are mostly in Vox or on our weekly coaching calls talking about um, you know, speed workouts and everything like that. And so a lot of them are are something along the lines of I had to cuss you a little bit this week. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I have I have said that on your speed workouts, if if you aren't feeling like you need to curse me at some point during it, you're probably not going hard enough. And I think that first started making its rounds publicly during Amanda's one of Amanda's podcast episodes. I think her first podcast episode is where she mentioned it. And, or no, no, no, no, no. Her second one, where she she said, like, oh, sometime in the fall, you said something on the stronger, faster finisher call about if you don't want to curse me by the end or part way through your speed workout, you're not going hard enough. And oh, I'm not going hard enough. Well, I have been getting so many DMs and like runners saying things like, I found my cuss, I'm gonna cuss a little bit pace. And I love that. Find your I'm gonna cuss a little bit pace. And I got even a message yesterday from one of my stronger faster finisher members, and she was like, Am I supposed to feel like I'm dying during 30 2010? Uh, can I walk during the 30? Is it supposed to feel like this? And I said, Yes, it should. And I started reflecting a little bit because it I don't want to give off the wrong impression, right? So, because I I started realizing like with these phrases that runners are saying to me, and the phrases that I am also putting out there, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. So I I want to use this podcast episode to clarify a few things. So, you know, we've all heard the phrases no pain, no gain, or even Jillian Michaels, remember her from The Biggest Loser. I think she was the biggest loser. That is my personal opinion. If anybody has watched that Netflix documentary about the biggest loser, it was so eye-opening. Stopped watching. I used to watch that show a lot. And I stopped watching it as I learned more and more about the body and fitness and just physical therapy and things like that. I was like, I can't watch this anymore. But she would say things like, if you're not almost puking, fainting, or dying, like keep going kind of thing. Like, what was the actual phrase that she would say? She would say, unless you puke, faint, or die, keep going. And I want to clarify that I am being somewhat facetious when I say, like, you sh you're gonna feel like you're gonna want to die during the speed workout. And of course, I don't want you to take it to the edge, ed, the edge. I don't want you to take it to the extreme. But what I do want you to do is I want you to push so hard that you are questioning, can I do another one? This is so hard. And and I want you to feel that way. And so some runners are describing it as feeling like you're going to die. So I will use phrases that you are using. I will use them back with you, to you, right? Because that's a phrase that makes sense to you. Somebody else says, I'm gonna cuss a little bit. And I typically say, like, you're gonna swear at me, because in the middle of my run, I'm swearing at myself. I've posted the video of me on the treadmill doing the hill workouts, and I drop an F bomb. And that's to myself. I did that to myself, but that's how hard the workout was by the end of it. It's like, oh my God, like I you're doing what you know you can do, but damn, it's hard. Or F, this is hard. But you survive it, right? And so I don't want to lead you astray and I don't want to confuse you. I don't want you to faint or puke. I obviously don't want you to actually die. I do want the speed workout to be so hard, there is no question you left it all out in that workout, right? Like growing up playing soccer, we used to say things like, leave it all on the field. Like, give it all you have that day. Leave it all out there. And that's what I'm looking for in the speed workout. Give it your all today for this speed workout. Go so hard on this pace that you don't have anything left in you by the end of the speed workout. And, you know, uh going back to the title of this podcast episode, no pain, no gain, really, like that's a phrase that people say to get you to push your hardest. Now, I don't believe in no pain, no gain. And so this is where part of that clarity comes in. It's not no pain, no gain. Pain is your body's way of saying, not this, not right now. You shouldn't be in physical, intractable pain, right? Like, should your muscles feel like they're doing something they don't normally do? Yes, but that's different than pain. They shouldn't feel injured or or on the brink of it, right? And I don't think any of you are feeling that, but I do want to clarify because clarity is kindness, right? Like, or clarity is kind. I want you to have success. And if I'm not clear with what I'm saying, you're not going to have success. And sweat is your is pain leaving your body, right? Like, okay, that's fine. You may or may not sweat during your workout. I'm not a huge sweater, so I don't always sweat during a workout. Doesn't mean it wasn't hard, but there are other ways to tell if it was hard. Like if you're feeling like, oh man, I still I got one more. Do I have it in me? Question it. If you're not saying that toward the end of the workout, you probably didn't go hard during the first nine rounds of that hill workout. Do you have a recovery in between? Absolutely. But each recovery for the hill workout as an example, because the hill workout in a 45-minute hill workout, you will do 10 sprints up the hill with two, with 10 two-minute recoveries or nine two-minute recoveries. And then the last recovery starts your cooldown, and that will be 10 minutes. So you will have 30 seconds of push and two minutes of recovery. And you will recover in those two minutes. You won't recover all the way back down to baseline by like number six or seven for sure, maybe even sooner. The first one or two, you may be recovering all the way back to baseline, like heart rate, um, like what you feel like when you're resting. And then you're ready to go again. But by five, six, seven, eight, you're not back to baseline. And you're like, oh, that was a quick two minutes. I can't believe that went by so fast. Holy crap, I have to go again. And then number nine, you're like, oh my God, I have one more of these. Okay, uh, do I have one more in me? Do I have one more in me? Yes. Okay, I can do this. I feel like I'm gonna die, but I got this. Right? Like, that's the kind of thing I want because you need to push your limits. You need to push your boundaries in a safe way to make progress. Right. I've talked a lot about the gray zone lately and running with purpose. The gray zone being where all of your paces get muddled together. And I don't want that to happen for you because if you're running in the gray zone, you're not getting faster. You're actually probably exhausting yourself and getting slower. And then that frustrates you because you've been doing it for three, six, nine months and you're like, why the F am I not getting any faster? What the heck? I'm putting in all of this work. All of my workouts are tiring. They say I need to push my boundaries, push my limits. I am because I'm tired at the end of the workout. But why is this not working? Well, you're tired at the end of every workout, and such that you aren't giving yourself enough recovery. So maybe you're pushing your hard limits five days a week, or maybe you're pushing just barely pushing your limits, keeping all of those paces about the same. This is what I typically see is all of the paces are about the same. You're trying to go race pace because Run Disney recommends training to a 15 minute per mile. And for the audience that I serve, the back of the pack audience, that's race pace, right? And so you're training 15 minute per mile pace to make sure that you can finish within the 16 minute per mile pace. So you're doing five runs a week, one of them being a long run, the other ones being maintenance runs as an example, but they're all hovering around the 15 minute per mile pace. And maybe you're trying to actually go 14 and settling for 15, but they're all in the same zone. They're all in that same pace, and you're doing it five days a week. And so your body is that's hard for you, right? Because race pace is hard for everybody. Boston qualifiers, Olympians, Run Disney runners, run Disney A Corral, Run Disney G Corral. Race pace is hard. I don't know many people that just like go out and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. My race pace, that's like easy peasy. This is no problem. Do people do races and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, this was an easy run for me? Yes. But that was the purpose. Remember going back to purposeful running, run with purpose? Like Des Linden this year won the female runner division of Princess Half Marathon weekend. I don't even know if I said that right, but like she was the first female non-wheelchair finisher, right? So, but this was a training run for her while training for Boston. So she didn't go crazy gung-ho. So she didn't run her race pace. She ran a race at a pace, but not the pace she would typically run a race at. That was probably confusing. I am so sorry. But what I'm getting at is we race pace, race pace is tiring. So if you're doing that five days a week, six months, seven months, twelve months the year, you're going to be exhausted. And when your body's exhausted, you actually start getting slower. And then that makes it harder. So, what does this have to do with pushing your boundaries? Because isn't race pace pushing your boundary? Yes. However, instead of thinking, no pain, no gain, I have to hurt for it to be worth it. The I have to be on the verge of puking, fainting, or dying for every workout in order to make progress. Because that's where I really started going with this. With Gillian Michaels, if you ever watched those early years, probably not even just the early years, of the biggest loser, they were working out hours and hours and hours on end. People were falling off the treadmill. People were collapsing under the under the weight of the weights that they were trying to lift. They were eating barely any calories to get the best outcome for their weight loss in a short amount of time. Now, it wasn't sustainable. There's some percentage, I don't remember off the top of my head, of how many people were able to actually sustain that weight loss. It wasn't sustainable. Most people gained the weight back. And that's a whole other problem. But she would push, push, push, and again, make it not sustainable. They couldn't maintain that afterward because their body would be exhausted afterward and they would have all these other problems. So what if instead you do it differently and you run with purpose? What is the purpose of each individual workout? When you're trying to get faster, you need to be very strategic about it. And the way I recommend that happening, or that you should do that, is two short speed workouts a week, 45 minutes. And that includes a warm-up and cool down. So when I talk about the time frame of a workout, if I'm talking about in time uh category, that's 10-minute warm-up, 10-minute cooldown, 25 minutes of the actual speed workout. Your first reaction is probably, well, I'm not gonna make any progress with that. I invite you to try it before you make that assumption. You can get a lot done in a short amount of time. And I actually will push back and say, in that short amount of time, couldn't you actually go faster than trying to do it for a whole hour or even 50 minutes? Cause that's doubling it, right? 25 minutes versus 50 minutes. Why not go hard in those 25 minutes and see where you end up? And do you stay there for the next five to 10 years? No, probably not. Then you change it. Like I have my runners incrementally increase up to like a 60-minute run. Do you need to make a run longer than that, like more time on your feet than that? Debatable. For the runners I work with, we're not looking to qualify for Boston, win Boston, Berlin, Chicago, New York. We're not looking to win podium or anything like that. We go to Disney to have fun, get the medals, and be able to get all the character stops. So to me, a 60-minute workout, again, 10-minute warm up, 10-minute cooldown, 40 minutes of actual work is up at the upper limit of how far, how long you need to run to get faster in that type of workout, right? But we're going strategic. So you start off if you're running at least a 5K distance. Now, this next bit doesn't apply if you're training up to a 5K. You, your speed workouts would be shorter. They'd be 10 or 15 minutes of actual speed workout time, probably 10 minutes to start, because you have to start somewhere, right? But it's not where you're going to be forever. So if you're running at least a 5K distance, which is all of my training plans except for the zero to 5K, you're starting at at least 5K, you're doing two 45 minute speed workouts during the week. Those are the days that you go hard. Go hard. Cuss me by the end of it. Question yourself on your second to last round, do I have one more in me? If the answer is, oh, totally, you didn't push hard enough in the first eight rounds or however many rounds there are. You should be second guessing, do I actually have it in me to go one more? That's how hard I want you to push. You will surprise yourself at how fast that is. And what else you need to do. So those are the two strategic speed workouts in the week. I recommend Tuesday, Thursday, because most people do their long run on Saturday or Sunday. So this makes it so that you have fresh legs, so to speak, for your long run and you have fresh legs for your speed workouts. Okay, Tuesday, Thursday. And you are also going to be doing cross training, which could be riding a bike, elliptical, paced walking. So walking at a specific pace. Remember, purposeful. You've picked a pace, you're aiming for it. Walking, that's a paced walk. That one gets your walk interval time faster. Okay. So two speed workouts, two cross training, that's also 45 minutes, and then one long run. Here's the kicker. The long run has to be so slow by the end of it, you're like, oh my God, I could do like another three miles. That was nothing. Did I do this right? Why am I not sweating? Why is my heart rate like barely anything for a workout? Like, is my watch working? Did that record my heart rate right? That can't be right. That can't be right. How did I all do 10 miles? It like I no, no, I like, yeah, I know I've been out here for a long time, but like my heart rate's fine, like my breathing's no problem. Like I've been on the phone for the last hour. That's how your easy long run should be. And when you make it so that your easy long run is so easy, you can have a whole phone conversation the entire time you're out there. Or you can sing all of the songs to Moana or Frozen throughout your run without missing a beat. When you do that, your 45-minute speed workout is going to be incredible. Incredible. You know why? It's because you have split up your paces so wildly different that you actually recovered from that 10-mile long run in time so that your body is fresh and ready for the speed workout, for you to give it your all. Leave it all out there. The problem with the late 90s, early 2000s workout trends, like you saw in The Biggest Loser, because that came out in like 2004. The problem with that is it was an all or nothing mindset. I need to give it my all wet buckets on the verge of puking every single workout in order to lose weight, in order for this workout to be worth it. The problem with that is it doesn't work. Did people lose a lot of weight very quickly in Biggest Loser? Yeah. But they gained it back and then some. I think some of the people who came back on that documentary from Biggest Loser, I think some of them said they even doubled their weight or almost doubled their weight because it wasn't sustainable. And we're looking for sustainability, right? Like you want to be able to keep running and do Princess Half Marathon weekend every year, dopey every other year, or what have you. You want to have fun doing it and you want to make progress. The way you make progress is pick a purpose for each of your workouts. Speed workouts is to get faster. So go hard. Go crazy hard. Make my ears burn because you are cussing me out. I'm all for it. And make those easy long runs so easy that you can sing the entire soundtrack to frozen. Or just sing let it go over and over again, especially if you have a toddler, right? Let your body recover so that you can go hard. Right. And, you know, to add to this, not to try and confuse you or anything, because remember, clarity is kind, but we've heard of aerobic and anaerobic exercise, right? Aerobic and anaerobic exercise. So aerobic exercise means with oxygen. Anaerobic means without oxygen. So an A-N is without. So aerobic exercise with oxygen. This is sustained moderate intensity movement to build cardiovascular, so that's heart and lung endurance, burning fat and glucose over long periods of time. Anaerobic without oxygen consists of short, high intensity bursts that build strength and power by breaking down muscle glucose. Heavy lifting and sprinting are examples. So that's that's why, like, we want an aerobic activity over the long term. Like, we can't do anaerobic for long bouts anyway. It physically, physically, like physiologically, it can't happen. That's why the sprints are so short. That's why when you lift heavy, you rest for two to five minutes. Because you need to build back up that ATP. ATP is what your body uses for energy. That's why the sprint workouts are so short. That's why the speed workouts are so short because you are sprinting during it. But you will build up your body's ability to do that and get faster and faster and faster. That will then translate to your aerobic capacity as well. But we also need to work on that. And you know what? Now that I've said that, maybe I shouldn't have included that in this episode. We'll see if it makes the final cut. Because I don't want to confuse you. I think the best way to think about it is run with purpose. What is the purpose of this run? Speed workouts, the purpose is to get faster. So you need to go fast. Long runs, the ones that have mile after mile after mile, the purpose is to be able to go on your feet, be on your feet that whole length of time. Build the endurance to be able to be on your feet for the length of time it will take you to finish those miles. Think of it as I'm just adding more miles as opposed to I'm trying to go fast. Miles versus fast. So a long run is slow going the distance. Speed workouts are fast and short. When you keep those completely separate, you will actually get faster in a short amount of time. And the people who are new to doing this get the fastest, the shortest. Like most runners who work with me, the first time they do these, they get one minute per mile faster in the first 30 days. But then as they keep going with it, it might take two months or three months to get another minute per mile faster. But that first beginning window in that first 30 days, so like four weeks to six weeks, game changer. When you do it right, if you're not seeing results in that first four to six weeks, you're probably still running in the gray zone. That's the first one. That's the most likely one. The second one is you may not be fueling adequately to help your body recover. And then, so I'm saying, like, well, how do I, you know, I'm saying you need to push your boundaries, but how do I actually know what your boundaries are? Well, so glad you asked. That's where pace testing comes in because the way you've been doing it and just going out and feeling exhausted after every run, that feels like you're pushing your boundaries and you are hitting your upper limits, right? Because you're exhausted all the time. So you're exhausted after every run, you're sweating buckets after every run, your heart rate is through the roof. Yes, your heart rate is through the roof, but your heart rate can also be through the roof when you're ill, right? Have you ever noticed that? Like if somebody's in a hospital, heart rate is super duper high, resting heart rate's super duper high, and they just aren't feeling well. Like that's part of your body's response when it's ill or not recovered. So the way that you know how to test your boundaries, like what your boundaries are to push past, you pace test and you see on the best day ever, I'm fully fueled. I am so rested. I got the exact right amount of sleep, it's perfect weather or it's climate controlled on the treadmill. That's the best, right? Like we line up all of these perfect scenario things and make sure that they're happening. And then you test it. You test your hard pace. That's your sprint all out for the duration of your run interval. So 30 seconds, if you do 30, 30 run-walk intervals, one 30-second round. What's that number? That's the fastest you can go. Let's see how fast your body can go in that time frame. If you do 30, 30 intervals, that's 30 seconds. If you do 15, 30 second intervals, then it's two 15 seconds of all out and you take the average of the two 15 seconds. Your, we test your moderate pace. That's what you can do for five minutes. And by five minutes, you're like, I don't have it in me. I need a five-minute break. I can't go more until I get a five-minute break. That's your moderate pace. And again, if you do run walk intervals, that's your run walk intervals. So if you do 30-30, you do 30 seconds running, 30 seconds walking, 30 seconds running, 30 seconds walking. Five rounds of that. And then you take the average of each of those run intervals only. Ignore the walk intervals. And then your easy pace is the pace that you could go all day at. You could do it and think, did I do anything? You could do it and have a whole phone conversation with. You could do it and sing, let it go, over and over and over again, and not miss a beat. And not, I mean, you might be out of breath, just a smidge by the end of it. Like teeny tiny bit, maybe, maybe. And again, 30-30 intervals, 30 seconds running, 30 seconds walking, and you repeat the intervals. Now, if you're doing this on the treadmill, like I recommend, and I do recommend the treadmill, because it's controlled. You don't have to worry about what the actual pace is, because you hit a button, 4.0 miles per hour, 15 minutes per mile, and you hit that every time you run for your easy pace or your moderate pace, whatever it is. And then you take the average. But if you're on the treadmill, you just know it's 4.0 because you don't need to take that average. Same thing with the moderate and the hard. If you're on the treadmill, you just hit the button. Now you know your limits. And you can push your limits. So you push your moderate and your hard limits on your speed workout days. And then you go your easy pace on your long runs. And we know that's your easy pace because you were able to sing let it go the entire time. And then with your moderate and hard paces, well, on your 30, 20, 10, your 20 seconds and your 10 seconds are near your moderate and your hard. So you're pushing the limits, right? Because a good example is the 30, 20, 10. So you could do the 30, 20, 10 one of two ways. You could do your just under your easy pace for the 30, or you could walk it. And then your 20 seconds pace is whatever your moderate pace is plus 0.1. Now, this is assuming that it's your moderate pace at at least a 30-30 interval. If you're doing a shorter running interval, like 15 seconds, maybe just keep it at the moderate because we know that that's what you could do over the five minutes for that run interval, right? And then your 10 seconds. Well, we know that if even if you're doing a 1530 or a 3030, that hard pace is what you can do during 15 seconds or 30 seconds. So we can bump it up. So it can be your hard place pace plus 0.1. And then that's pushing your limit, right? And so now you practice doing that for six to eight weeks. And well, now you've done that three or four times, two or three times. I don't know how many times you're doing it in the course of six weeks. And now that's old hat, right? Like you've been doing that. Like, oh yeah, I could do more than that now. And now you get a whole new set of paces. But you can't get there if you aren't pushing your limits the proper way and strategically. And I really want, I really want you to be able to do a Disney race and not have to wonder, oh my God, how long is it going to take me to finish? How am I going to be able to sustain the 16 minute per mile pace? Where are the balloon ladies? And I certainly don't want you to wonder, how long is this race going to take me? Because I'd say that's another common one where runners are like, I have no clue. I have no concept of how long this run is going to take me. I want you to have a clue as to how long that's going to take you. Because most runners, their race pace, I'm finding their race pace is somewhere between their easy and their moderate pace. I haven't figured out exactly where, but let's just say we take the average of it. Well, if we take the average of your easy and your moderate pace and we find out that that number is 14 minute per mile pace, well, now we can do an educated guess on how long your race is going to take you. Because then we just need to multiply the race distance by 14 minute per mile, right? Because if you're doing a 10K and your easy pace is 16 minute per mile and your moderate pace is 12 minute per mile, just for conversation's sake, because I know the average of that comes out to be 14 minute per mile. I can do that math quickly in my head. Well, now we know just multiply 14 times whatever your race distance is, and it's going to be somewhere around there. And that gives us an educated guess on how long that race is going to take you. But we can't get there without pace testing. We can't get there without you practicing moderate pace over and over again. Can't get there without you doing your easy long runs so that you can recover adequately so that you aren't, you know, on the edge of not recovered, so that you have fresh legs for your speed workout. So you have fresh legs for race day. I want you to enjoy Disney at these Run Disney events as much as you can. And I want you to get all the character stops that you want. I want you to not have to worry about the balloon ladies. Cause as nice as they are, the fear of being swept is real. So take this information as you will to apply it to what you can do in your training plan right now.