RTTC #226 Will Running Longer Intervals Make Me Faster?

In this episode of Running to the Castle, Dr. Ali breaks down one of the most common assumptions in the run/walk world:  that running longer is the key to getting faster. 

Using a real question from a Stronger Faster Finisher member preparing for a 10-miler, Dr. Ali walks through the math behind run/walk pacing and reveals four distinct levers every runner can pull to improve their overall pace. 

The episode challenges runners to think beyond just their run interval and consider the surprising power of walking faster.

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  Hi, I'm Dr. Ali
  I've been running for 15+ years and been in the rehab space since 2012 when I earned my Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree. I get injury prone runDisney runners across the finish line without feeling broken.

Transcript

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Hey, how's it going? Today I'm talking about will running longer intervals make me faster? This is Running to the Castle, a podcast for slow, back-of-the-pack Run Disney runners on a journey to running magical miles. Join me, Dr. Ali, as I share the secrets I've gathered as a runner, doctor of physical therapy, and coach. You'll learn the exact ways I get my clients to the castle strong, have a bigger buffer ahead of the balloon ladies, and have time to stop for character photos. Keep listening if your goal is to PR in fun, cross the finish line without feeling broken, and have energy to enjoy the Disney parks. First off, I would like to say thank you to everybody who has shown and shared support with me about my new series here on the podcast of my proof of time and sharing how relatable it is, that you enjoy listening to it. I am so happy. I will continue to make them as long as you are happy with them. So thank you so much for sharing with me because I want to make sure that what I am sharing is relevant, is relatable. And you're not just like, here's Allie again talking about this proof of time. I don't care. I mean, maybe some of you don't. I I don't know. You you have to let me have to let me know that. And I do take that information because I am sharing on this podcast as a resource for you. So I want to make sure that what it is that you're looking for for like what questions you have, what answers you're looking for, that you can find it here. So please keep letting me know what you're interested in or ask questions. Send me a message, run Disney DPT over on Instagram. Because when I get questions there, or when I get questions in stronger, faster finisher that I think are relevant to more than one person, I make it a podcast episode. And it's great because you get the answer. And so does somebody else asking the question. And if you are asking the question, somebody else is also asking the question. So thank you so much. Speaking of questions coming from Stronger Faster Finisher, I had a question this week that asking about how to get faster, essentially. That's not exactly what the question was, but what we were getting at was this runner saw the uh the overall average pace they wanted to maintain for springtime surprise 10 milers specifically, that doing their intervals wasn't going to get them to that average pace. And it doesn't necessarily matter what the average pace was, but I'm going to give an example today. And that's not this person's average pace, but I am going to give an example today so that you can start thinking about it in relation to you. So this runner wanted to maintain a specific pace. We'll call it 15 minutes and 30 seconds, because they wanted to make sure that they were ahead of the balloon ladies, right? So they they picked 1530 as their goal average pace. Now, with that, you know, I've said that the average pace, I can't do a ton with because you could get to that average pace so many different ways, right? Like for an average pace of 1530, well, for easy math's sake, can I change that number for just a second? If you want to maintain a 16 minute per mile pace and you do run walk intervals of 3030 or an equal split, it doesn't even matter if it's 30-30. If it's an equal split, to maintain that 16 minute per mile pace, you could run 14 minute per mile pace and walk 17 minute per mile pace, or you could run 13 minute per mile pace. Let me start over. If you want to maintain a 16-minute per mile pace, you could run a 15-minute per mile pace, walk a 17-minute per mile pace. You could run a 14-minute per mile pace, walk an 18-minute per mile pace. You could run a 13-minute per mile pace, walk a 19-minute per mile pace. You could run a 12-minute per mile pace, walk a 20-minute per mile pace. You could run an 11-minute per mile pace, walk a 21-minute per mile pace. You could run a 10 minute per mile pace, walk a 22-minute per mile pace. I'm not going to keep going out and out and out, but you see, you see the pattern, right? And if if you don't see the pattern, that's okay. Write it out. Put 16 minutes in the middle, and then on either side, just go out one minute. So to the left side, you go 15. So you down by one minute. On the right side, you go up by one minute, and the left side is your running pace and the right side is your walking pace. And just keep going out and out and out until you have all of the options and see what your options are. And that's not even doing, you know, 15 seconds changing by 15 second intervals. That's changing by one minute at a time. But I could do what would it be if I ran 1515? What would it be if I ran 1530? What would I have to walk? Right. I could do that. I'm not going to do that today. But what I want to talk about is so the this runner, the question was how like I want to maintain a 15-minute, 30-second per mile pace because that's what she wanted to do for the 10-miler. And she said when she saw it that way, that she was like, it was, it wasn't going to be doable with my intervals. So on the fly, I changed my intervals. And you know what? I forgot to ask her what intervals she changed to on the fly. But when we were discussing it, I said, Well, moving forward, what do you want to try and do? And she said, Well, I want to try running for 60 seconds and I'll keep my walk the same. And I said, Okay, well, let's try it. And she added in, but I don't think I can run for more than a minute at a time without gassing out. And I said, Okay, well, will running 60 seconds and walking 45 seconds, will adding that 15 seconds of running, will that make her faster? And so in Stronger, Faster Finisher, I have a spreadsheet because I love my spreadsheets. I love data and I love being able to just see what are our options. So I have a race day pacing guide, I guess. Like it's a way to play around with, okay, if I, if I want to finish this half marathon as an example, because that's the next one wine and dine half marathon for this person. What, like, is it realistic that I can finish in this goal finish time? Or is it realistic that I could maintain this average pace for 13.1 miles? And let's just see what happens. So you get to put in your race distance, you get to put in your goal average pace, your run-walk intervals, and how fast you walk, what your walk pace of those intervals is. And then it spits out how fast you're gonna have to run. So for conversation's sake, I'm going to put that this person can walk an 18 minute per mile pace. Because remember, they want to be able to run an average of 15 minutes and 30 seconds. And again, that's a number I made up. And I'm I'm using that number because it's a common pace, because it's just ahead of the balloon, ladies, right? 16 minute per mile pace, give yourself 30 seconds per mile buffer over 13.1 miles. That's a seven-minute buffer, right? Ahead of even where you just land in the corral. So looking at this, 13.1 miles, 1530 average pace, running 45 seconds, walking 45 seconds. Because we're gonna look at this one first because this is where the person started at. This is what their intervals were. So with a walking pace of this just automatically makes it 18 minutes and 11 seconds, because that's um mile per hour wise, that's where it tracks. The run interval pace needed to maintain a 1530 is 1330. Ish. Remember, so these numbers aren't going to be exact. So no mathematicians out there bug me on the exact numbers. It's gonna be ish within a couple of seconds, just because of the way the math is, it it makes everything into seconds and then reconverts it back down. So sometimes with rounding, we lose a few seconds. Anyway, 13 minutes and 30 seconds running pace. So then the question is do you think you can run that pace? Yes or no? Yes or no appropriately. Let's just say, no, I can't run that pace. That is pushing it too much. So we have a few options. Now, will running longer make her faster? Let's just do that as an option first. So let's do the 60 seconds running and keep the walking interval the same. So putting it at 60 seconds running, maintaining 15 minutes and 30 seconds average pace, walking pace about 18 minutes per mile, the run interval pace now slows down to 13 minutes and 57 seconds. Is that doable? The answer is yes or no. Now this is a slower pace, but can you run for 60 seconds? Because if you can't run for 60 seconds, this isn't gonna work, right? Like most runners who are doing run walk intervals, I mean, most runners anyway, I not even doing run walk intervals, the longer you're running, you're going to slow down. We see it time and time again in Olympians, the most elite runners as well, that the longer distances, the average pace, the minute per mile pace that they're doing slows down, right? Somebody running a 5k, their overall average pace is faster than their marathon pace. We're comparing one person to one person, right? Because they don't have to maintain that pace for 26.2 miles in a 5k. It's just 3.1 miles in comparison. I only say just because it's in comparison to the marathon. They they can go faster. They have the speed economy, for lack of a better term, to go faster because it's a shorter amount of time on your feet. It's a shorter distance to traverse. But as they keep adding miles, naturally that pace, that average pace is going to slow down. Now, maybe they do start their first 5K of the marathon at their 5K race pace, but they're not going to be able to maintain that. And so as they get to 10K, it's going to slow down a little bit. As they get to half marathon, it's going to slow down a bit. Then as they get to the marathon, it's going to slow down even more. And it's, I don't know if it's linear. I don't know that distinction. Maybe that's something for me to research more in the future. I don't know. I could, I could research and look at the McMillan calculation and graph it and see if it's a linear change. I don't know. So, but that's not the point of today's conversation. So can they maintain that for 13.1 miles? Because now I just mentioned like 5K distance to marathon distance. Same concept. If you're doing run walk intervals, the longer you have to stay running, you are naturally going to slow down. If I had to go out and run 30 seconds right now, it would be a heck of a lot faster than what I do with my third three minute, one-minute run walk intervals, right? If I know I only have to go do it for 30 seconds, I could go all out, but I can't maintain that all out pace for the three minutes during my run walk intervals. So if I switched my intervals to 30-30, would I overall be faster? Maybe, maybe. I don't, I don't know. Because I don't, I don't like 30-30 run walk intervals. They are too short of a turnover for me. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. You should use what feels comfortable. And this is going to be part of the conversation in a little bit. So she had already said that she doesn't think she could run longer than 60 seconds at a time. She already notices that she's slowing down as she runs longer. So we looked at this and I said, okay, well, now these aren't her numbers, but I said, okay, well, 1357, that's slower, but it's 15 seconds longer of running. So there's a trade-off, right? And is that economy, is that fuel economy, is that speed economy still there? Because yes, you slow down, but you have to keep doing it. You can't walk yet. So her original question was: should I increase the time I'm running to get faster? And I said, I don't know. I don't know. So we started looking at this. And there are four options when it comes to using run-walk intervals to get faster. You can change how long you're running, you can change how long you're walking, you can change how fast you're running, and you can change how fast you're walking. So when you keep a one-to-one ratio of run-walk intervals, it's going to stay the same. So, as an example, the 4545, I'm just gonna keep talking about run interval pace because the overall average pace we're aiming to maintain is a 15 minute 30 second average pace. The walking interval pace is about 18 minutes per mile. Those aren't changing. The only thing we're going to change is the timing of the run interval and the timing of the walk interval right now. And we're going to pay attention to what that run interval pace is going to come out at. So at 4545, the run interval pace is 1330. If I change that to 3030, the run walk interval stays at 1330. If I change it to 6060, the run interval stays the same at 1330. So at a one-to-one ratio, whether it be 15 seconds to 15 seconds, that's a one-to-one ratio, meaning the run time is the exact same as the walk time. Your run interval pace does not change. Okay. So if you keep, if you're trying to run faster and you keep those interval times the same, that may not work for you because the run interval pace to maintain that overall average pace stays the same. Now, so what happens if we run longer than we walk? So I already did the 6045 option. And as a reminder, that means that she has to run 13 minute 57 second per mile pace for the run interval. Well, what happens if we do 6030? Well, that drops it even more. And she only needs to run a 1426 per mile pace. But she's running double the amount of time that she's walking. So the question is, can you do that? At 1426, do you need more than 30 seconds to catch your breath? What if she ran 60 seconds and only walked 15 seconds? Well, that drops it even more. She only needs to run a 14-minute, 57-second pace. But can she do a 60, 60, 15 and only use 15 seconds of walking? I don't know if that's too quick of a turnaround. So let's look at it the other way. So we're gonna bring this back to 4545 for conversation's sake, because that's what we started out at, and the run pace is 1330. Well, what if we change the walk interval? What happens? So we're at 45 seconds running. What if we drop to 30 seconds walking? Well, that brings the running pace down to 1407. So that's 37 seconds per mile slower than keeping an even 45-45. So now we're doing 45 seconds, 30 seconds. Is that doable? And these are rhetorical questions for me because I don't need the answer. You need the answer. You need to give the answer. Could you run for 45 seconds and feel recovered enough for in 30? And is 30 seconds too quick of a turnover? Well, what if you did 45 seconds running and 60 seconds walking? Well, that makes the running pace go the opposite direction. Now we're in the 12s, 12 minutes and 57 seconds. When you're running 45 seconds and walking 60. So when your walk interval is longer than your run interval, you're going to need to run faster to maintain that overall average pace. When your run interval is longer than your walk interval, your run pace slows down, but you have to run longer. So then what happens if, no, let me ask it this way. So how do you decide what to do? Because you could manipulate these run-walk intervals to be whatever time frame you want to determine. Well, do I have to run faster or can I slow it down? So then the next question is well, what interval feels good to you? What feels comfortable? Some people really love the 30-30 run-walk intervals. I personally think that it's too quick of a turnover. I can't get into a good rhythm. But for some runners, that is the time frame for a good rhythm. And that's great. And so once once you find, like if you have found a run-walk interval timeframe that works for you, that's when you start looking at, okay, now how do I get faster? And so next, our options are going to be you could either run faster or you could walk faster, right? Because you have found the intervals you want to keep. You like these intervals. And let's just say that these intervals are going to be 4545 for conversation's sake right now. So let's see what happens. Well, we already know what happens with what our run pace is. If we want an overall 1530 average pace, if our walking pace is about 18 minutes per mile, our run pace needs to be 13 minutes 30 seconds. Is that doable? Maybe, maybe not. And then you make the decision, okay, well, realistically, like how far out of range is that 1330? Am I almost there? Maybe, maybe I could get a little bit faster and get there. And I don't know, that's a subjective little, right? I don't know what that is. Is a little bit 10 seconds? Is a little bit a minute? I don't know what that is for you. So then we start looking at, well, what happens if we change our walking pace? And this was mind-blowing to me last year because I just hadn't had anybody who had tried it. And so I didn't have the numbers. We had all just been working under the assumption that we need to run faster. And that's what I had my clients do. And we didn't pay too much attention to walking. And my philosophy has morphed over the years as I've done more run walking myself, because I wasn't always a run walker. I started off running and then I realized I can really enjoy this running thing a lot more. Not that I wasn't enjoying it, but I could enjoy it a lot more if I took walk breaks. And lo and behold, I do enjoy it a lot more. And so playing around with it, and one of my runners last year, she just, as part of her cross-training, was playing around with her different walking paces to see how things felt. And she found a walking pace that felt good for her and started incorporating it more in like long runs. And she was like, I've gotten significantly faster without changing my overall effort. Her run still felt easy. Now remember, an easy pace long run or an easy pace, excuse me, just easy pace with pace testing. Easy pace, you can sing during. You can have a conversation. You could do that pace all day until the cows come home. Not literally, for my friends that take that statement literally. I have since learned I need to do more descriptors. So that's why I add in you can have a conversation. You can sing, let it go. You can sing three and a half hours of the Eros Tour, right? Taylor Swift, she she's doing, I mean, she's bouncing between easy and moderate, I would say, during her training, if you didn't know, to train for the Eros Tour, which was three and a half hours, spanning, I think it's 17 years of her tracks. My clients who are Swifties, correct me if that was wrong. Please do. She ran on the treadmill and sang. And she slowed it down for the slow songs and she sped it up for the fast songs. And that's how she trained her body for the Eros Tour. And she was able to sing throughout that concert. Now, of course, she got out of breath at different times. Like, I'm not, we're not saying you're not going to get out of breath with certain workouts, right? But an easy pace, you can sing. And so this client practiced doing these different walks. And I already knew that like we should be doing paced walking as cross-training and working on just dabbling in getting our walk pace up, but I didn't know to what degree we could see changes. And she helped me see those changes. So thank you so much. So let's see in this instance what happens if we change our walking pace. So this run walk interval is 4545. The run pace needed is 1330. Right now, the um the walking pace is 1811. Let's just see what happens at just 18, so a 10-second difference. Now the run interval pace has dropped down to 1337. Now remember, the run walk interval time frame is staying the same. We're just walking faster. Well, what happens if we do 1730? Well, that drops our run pace to 1355. Well, what happens if we drop that 1730 to 1715? Well, now our run pace is 14.04. So now we've changed by almost one minute per mile walking faster, and we can run 34 seconds slower. Well, what happens if we bring this walk pace to 17 minutes even? Well, that brings our running pace to 14 minutes and 15 seconds. Well, what if we bring that to 1645, the walking pace? Now that brings our running pace to 1425. So you see how just we could do multiple things if we don't think we can get any faster running for whatever reason. You know, we are just gasping for breath running this. And you might be doing that on race day because race day, we're not training for race day to be easy. We're training so race day is is manageable. We know how to handle it, we know how we're going to feel, and we get to dictate how we're going to feel. If you want to give it your all on the race because you're going for a proof of time, well, yes, you're going to feel really worn out at the end of that. But you knew that based on how you were training, and then you know how to recover and everything. But if you do want your race day to feel easy, then you know what paces you need to run. Or you know if you can't slow down on your pace, but you need everything to tone it down a little bit. Well, then you need to walk more, right? You need to change your walk interval. So maybe you're running 30 seconds, but instead of walking 30 seconds, you're walking 60 seconds. Like on a hot day, like on a hot race, double up your walk time if you can't slow it down anymore. Cause some runners just they tell me, I can't go any slower. I do invite you to pace test if you feel like you can't go any slower. Cause I do believe that there is something that can be done. And it likely is that you can go slower, but maybe it is that you need to walk longer, right? So you can manipulate the situation. And the things that will make you run faster, you could run longer. So keeping your run interval pace the same and just run more time, that will make you faster. Overall, average, that will make you faster. Right? You could walk less. So not running more, but walking less, that will also make you faster. Not changing your run or your walk pace at all, but maybe you don't want to run longer or walk less. Well, then you could walk faster, or you could run faster. There are four ways to make yourself go faster. And I would say that the most common one is running longer interval. That is the most common one that people think of first because it's the first one that comes to mind. Like it is a no-brainer. It's yeah, just run more. But we have to battle when you run longer, you're you're naturally going to slow down. So you aren't going to be maintaining that exact same pace. So it is a battle, and you may need to work on that. And and it doesn't matter which one works for you. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other, right? They get you the same result and you have four choices. So, which is it that you want to do? Do you want to try running faster? Because that's a goal for some people, right? Like I just, I just want to be able to run faster during my intervals. Great. Other people, well, I want to run more time. I don't want to be at 30-30 anymore, or I don't want to be at 45, 45 anymore. I want to get to being five minutes running eventually. Okay. Well, then you you practice running more. But when you first start practicing running longer, you're gonna slow down. It's going to be a natural side effect of that. And then as you get better at it, as you practice with your speed workouts in the other ways, you'll get faster. So you can run faster, you could run longer, you could walk faster, or you could walk shorter. And it's all up to you. What one makes the most sense for you? And I do recommend finding the run-walk interval that works for you first, the one that feels right, and go from there. Because what if double running time and half the walking time feels the best for you, right? Like then you don't have to do anything, right? Because if we're running 60 seconds, walking 30 seconds, we can still maintain a 1530 and our run interval gets to slow down compared to like if we're doing 4545, and I choose that because that's that is a the intervals that we started at with this particular person, but it's also splitting the difference between where I'm gonna go. So 4545 starting at 4545, walking pace is 18 minutes, 11 seconds, run interval pace is 1330. If I double how much running I'm doing, so I go to 60 seconds and go down to 30 seconds on my walking. Now my run interval pace is 1426. For an overall average pace stayed the same and I didn't need to change my walking. But can you run for 60 seconds? I know it's only 15 seconds more, but that's a big deal because that's one third of what you were doing before. 15 is one third of 45. So adding an additional 15 seconds is 30% more, 33% more technically. And you know, in my world, that's a big jump because the normal jump, the low jump is 10%. So, of course, if you were increasing your run interval, you would add just a smidge. I recommend five seconds because that is a safe amount and it's not that odd of an amount. So if you went from 45 seconds, you'd go up to 50, do that for a couple of weeks and then 55, do that for a couple of weeks and then get to 60. But that's not today's conversation. But if you went to 60 seconds of running and 30 seconds of walking, you would only have to run 14 minutes and 26 seconds per mile. But can you run for 60 seconds and only walk for 30? Only you can tell me that. Only you can determine that because what feels comfortable? You need to be able to run for that length of time at that pace to maintain the overall 1530. So I hope this was interesting and eye-opening for the different ways that you can get faster. And running longer is not always the best option. I have found that many runners are finding benefit in just walking faster, not changing their intervals, not changing how fast they're running. Just see if you could walk a little bit faster and see how that changes your overall pace. If you do it, let me know.